Whateveresque (beta)

@*&!, you squirrelly little @*!(@!!!

Ahem.

I was lurking around an Anne McCaffrey message board just now, and came across a post by someone who said they would say, "For the love of Robinton!" when they were exasperated. Now, that's not a canon Pernese oath, for those who aren't familiar with her Dragonriders of Pern series. But it fell on my ears perfectly, and is something I'd totally use if I did future-Pern fanfic. Which makes me think of the times an author makes up curses or oaths or swearing, and how they tend to either fall just right on the ear, or sound clunky, jarring and obvious.

How do you get made-up cussing fall correctly on the ears of your readers, and become a seamless part of your world, rather than something tacked on to say, "See here, this kingdom is different, they have their own CUSS WORDS!!!"?

Aside from "For the love of Robinton", I like Anne Bishop's, "Mother Night and may the Darkness by Merciful!" as an oath. Or "Mother Night!" for short. I was also grinning madly at Scott Lynch's, "If I may fondle my own breechclout" (stroke my own ego) and "He's tugging on your breechclout" (paraphrased; riff on 'pulling your leg') which teaches old phrases new tricks of meaning. Or maybe I just have a twisted mind. stroking your own ego => stroking your own breechclout just brings nuances of meaning that makes the twelve year old in me giggle madly. (masturbation! tee hee hee!)

On the other hand, Anne McCaffrey's, "Shards!" never fell right on my ears, nor does "By the gods" (because there's ALWAYS an "s" in SFF) which many, many stories use. Nor does the TV show Beast War's "Slag!" I think this may be related to the fact that both "shards" and "slag" are ordinary words, and there's nothing in either text/show to show that the mundane meanings are now taboo, so they hold no significance as they still carry their boring, mundane interpretations in my mind. I can't just believe they're suddenly cusswords. All good cuss words seem to cast a pall on their formally mundane usages, since "good people" wouldn't want to say the word at all. It helps build up the taboo, and gives the cussword force. (Why swear at all if your cusses are neutered?)

Or at least that's my theory, on why those types of cusswords don't work for me as a reader.

Terry Goodkind's "Bags!" almost bucked this for me, mostly because other characters keep telling off Zedd for saying it when he says it in front of children, thereby giving it taboo status. Alas, I was 12 when I read this, and being female, didn't instantly pick up the full meaning given I was still in the early stages of crawling away from my strict-ish Catholic upbringing. So I wasn't quite so sure why "Bags" was a bad word...much like the little girl in the story, lol.

What are some good cusses and oaths and swearwords you guys have come across in books? Why do you like them? What makes them work for you as a reader?

What are some dirt-poor cusses and oaths you've read in books? What made them fall flat for you?

(I was sorely tempted to write FUCK! as the subject just to watch pageviews go up...but I couldn't bring up the nerve...)

I have tendency to believe that any cuss word not related to excreting, sex or gods just sounds lame (conversely, this is why saying "goddamn motherfucking shit" is so innately satisfying).

I also have a tendency to believe that inasmuch as we generally translate our characters words from whatever fake language they supposed to be talking, there's no foul in translating "Shards!" or whatever into "Fuck!"

scalzi wrote:I have tendency to believe that any cuss word not related to excreting, sex or gods just sounds lame (conversely, this is why saying "goddamn motherfucking shit" is so innately satisfying).

I think they sound lame too, mostly because if they don't have to do with one of those three the author doesn't put in enough...mmm...worldbuilding? Characterbuilding? to make me believe the subject is taboo. Which isn't surprising; making fake cusswords sound legit probably isn't a high priority on anyone's to-do list.

I was in the local library the other day, and I picked up an encyclopedia of cuss words, and it went over how cusses typically have to do with excretory functions, religion, or sex, but which cusswords were preferred in a given generation depended on how taboo the concept was in a culture. Very interesting book; I'll go grab the title next time I'm there and share. It was a reference book so it couldn't be checked out. (Surprisingly, they had it very proudly on display. I love Evanston! My old town wouldn't have even carried it.)

One of the examples in the book was that, in our modern culture, "damn" doesn't hold too much weight anymore. But "motherfucker" still does, possibly because it has to do with incest (still a very big taboo here), and insulting one's mother, who typically is held in some sort of regard, hopefully positive. Also that types of swears keep rotating as each wayward generation of youths wear words out. Reminds me of my contemporaries effing their way through everyday conversations. (Hey, that's my swear word! Now on the rare occasions when I utter it, nobody will be struck at how pissed off I am. :( )

scalzi wrote:I also have a tendency to believe that inasmuch as we generally translate our characters words from whatever fake language they supposed to be talking, there's no foul in translating "Shards!" or whatever into "Fuck!"

...so do you mean as a reader those types of substitution-swears aren't jarring for you? Or for the sake of the story do you just insert "fuck" or "dammit" or whatever in there that fits and keep on reading?

I think 'frak' still works ok in Battlestar Galactica - but Frelling doesn't work for me (B5). Maybe it's a hard consonant issue?

I use frell, or what the frell from Farscape all the time. :-) I do agree that frak is more satisfying, but fuck is perfect.

-Jeff

I've actually picked up 'Frak'. In fact, it's totally replaced the other word, when I have my wits about me. However, if I'm totally frustrated, I'm dropping f-bombs like shock and awe. It's horrendous.

I enjoyed "Powers!" in Sarah Monette's Melusine. Most recently in Brandon Sanderson's Elantris, characters say "Merciful Domi!" a lot, and while it isn't really replacing a cuss or curse word, it rolled off the tongue in my head (ew!) with ease. I'm sure there's others out there that work better than some...

Frak I need that Fraking shirt.

I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse - the outdoor nut's big box store - and prominently displayed at the checkout stand was a stack of Bark Licker bricks.

Isn't that a great cursing substitute? You bark licker! Your mother was a bark licking brick! It's got hard consonants, it's got rhythm, and it sounds completely obscene without actually being so.

It's actually deer bait - salt, minerals, apple pulp. But the name reduced my hub and I to major laughter (and George Carlin quotes).

How do you get made-up cussing fall correctly on the ears of your readers, and become a seamless part of your world, rather than something tacked on to say, "See here, this kingdom is different, they have their own CUSS WORDS!!!"?

Funnily enough, when I was a kid first discovering Pern, one of the things I loved was the different swear words, based on setting specific stuff like dragons and Thread. It made it feel more real to me, and at the same time less offensive/embarrassing for an eleven-year old to be reading.

Swear words basically fall into two categories - religious references and bodily functions. In a made up setting with different religion, you're almost certainly going to need new curses, unless you go with all gross ones. I imagine writers practice them to make sure they ring with authenticity; do you think McCaffrey got into the habit of saying "by the egg!" when she was exasperated? After years of watching Simpsons, I honestly do say "D'oh!" more than any real swear word.

Sometimes writers go too far though, and it does become jarring. When I read Frostflower and Thorn by Phyllis Ann Karr (also when I was probably too young for it), every time I came across "fathermilker" I had a very nasty ew-shudder reaction that wrecked the immersion. And yet, even by then, I'd become desensitized to motherfucker.

scalzi wrote:I have tendency to believe that any cuss word not related to excreting, sex or gods just sounds lame (conversely, this is why saying "goddamn motherfucking shit" is so innately satisfying).

I also have a tendency to believe that inasmuch as we generally translate our characters words from whatever fake language they supposed to be talking, there's no foul in translating "Shards!" or whatever into "Fuck!"

Yeah, what he said. :) I just assume that in some cases, we are reading a translation of someone's native tongue and the analogous cuss words.

For me, cursing is like music in writing. I don't try to make up new music or curses because they will always sound dated (Calypso being a popular form of music in Red Mars just makes me squirm). New curse words do as well. "Jupiter's rings!" "Darth Vader's seared tittie balls!" "By Skywalker's Crotch!"

See what I mean?

That said, I've been dying to come up with something as effective as BEar's "The Christ!" from Carnival. Maybe next year.

Oh, and the "junk rhythms" Richard K. Morgan writes about in his books are, like most of the other things he writes about, frigging brilliant!

Usually fake cuss words sound lame (I particularly hate BSG's "Frak") but Farscape's "frell/frelling" is so great that it has made it into normal speech at my (geek-infested) workplace. It's actually almost as fun to say as "fuck" and yet is not technically a cuss word, so is safe in situations where cussing is frowned upon.

Most fake cussing is bad, though, as is most fake language not constructed by linguists.

I know it's a book board, but I liked the TV Series "Firefly" and how they handled it. They used Chinese, or made-up Chinese words for their cussing. You got the drift of what they were saying, even if they didn't outright say it. "Gorram" was quite frequently used, and there was no doubt as to what they were saying when they said it.

Randy wrote:I know it's a book board, but I liked the TV Series "Firefly" and how they handled it. They used Chinese, or made-up Chinese words for their cussing. You got the drift of what they were saying, even if they didn't outright say it. "Gorram" was quite frequently used, and there was no doubt as to what they were saying when they said it.

Ungh. Joss Wheedon's writing is one lomg obscenity in itself.

Jeri wrote:I think 'frak' still works ok in Battlestar Galactica - but Frelling doesn't work for me (B5). Maybe it's a hard consonant issue?

Yeah, frak is the only one that really passes for me. The old BSG had "felgercarb" which was fun to say but in the wrong company outed you as "un geek totale." What did the robot always say on that show Quark with what'shisname from Portnoy's Complaint? I wish I could remember.

Kate Baker wrote:I've actually picked up 'Frak'. In fact, it's totally replaced the other word, when I have my wits about me. However, if I'm totally frustrated, I'm dropping f-bombs like shock and awe. It's horrendous.

That shirt is the shit.

Jeri wrote:I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse - the outdoor nut's big box store - and prominently displayed at the checkout stand was a stack of Bark Licker bricks.

Isn't that a great cursing substitute? You bark licker! Your mother was a bark licking brick! It's got hard consonants, it's got rhythm, and it sounds completely obscene without actually being so.

It's actually deer bait - salt, minerals, apple pulp. But the name reduced my hub and I to major laughter (and George Carlin quotes).

Oh, that is soooo my new epithet. "Listen up, you bark licker!"

For a long time, I thought "smeg" as used by the Red Dwarf crew was a made-up swear. I was a very innocent child.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Niven's TANJ. I guess it was supposed to stand for "There Ain't No Justice" and people used it in place of Damn.

re: BarkLicker....that reminds me of the old Gregg scene from the Mighty Boosh when old Gregg calls Moon a "motherlicker".

Tanj! The Ringworld books are great, but every time I come across Tanj it's like a wet fish in the face. Good one!

Frak works well enough, it's like the diet Coke version of fuck.

When I was plowing through great chunks of The Wheel of Time on a regular basis, I would pop "Blood and bloody ashes!" into conversation without even realizing it.

Domini wrote:I think they sound lame too, mostly because if they don't have to do with one of those three the author doesn't put in enough...mmm...worldbuilding? Characterbuilding? to make me believe the subject is taboo. Which isn't surprising; making fake cusswords sound legit probably isn't a high priority on anyone's to-do list.

That's it in a nutshell. If the book is in English, why not use the English words for the scatalogical and reproductive terms? If the society is more-or-less analagous to our own, it's hard to parse why we're using such different curses. On the other hand, custom religious-based curse words work quite well in many fantasy worlds because the religion is a key part of the world-building.

scalzi wrote:I have tendency to believe that any cuss word not related to excreting, sex or gods just sounds lame

I think that cuss words need to at least have an inuendo towards those things, which is what "Bark Licker" could work. It's just enough for someone to say, "if that's what the kids are calling it these days..."

Domini wrote:I was in the local library the other day, and I picked up an encyclopedia of cuss words, and it went over how cusses typically have to do with excretory functions, religion, or sex {...}

On the one paw, one could plausibly claim that most of life as we experience it falls within one or more of those domains (excretory functions, religion and sex). On the other claw, what sort of bloodless, maggoty encyclopedia of cusses (or curses, or oaths) fails to consider such categories as Anatomy, Ancestry, or Animal Kinship? Such an omission overlooks centuries of invective, from Homer through Shakespeare to A Clockwork Orange.

Holy Klono's tungsten teeth and curving carballoy claws!

Bark Licker, I like that. There's a moose eating my flower bed right now, I just called her a "damn bark licker." It was quite satisfying. And that, for me at least, is the real key to cursing and swearing - the word must give the user a sense of satisfaction when used.

I always liked "futz,' which appears throughout Niven's Known Space. I thought the rest of his swear words sounded too contrived, but futz I like and have used to good effect.

I find myself using made up swear words when I'm trying to sell to markets that are increasingly for teen readers.

I was researching vulgar hand motions a while back and ran into the sources/discussions about cursing. There was a point that someone made that in English, cursing is pretty much what John wants it to be. But in other languages, cursing isn't limited to sex, excrement and religion. Parentage/ancestry cursing is far more insulting in several cultures.

I find it interesting when fantasy authors incorporate real cuss words in their made-up languages. For example, in Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series, the primary language spoken by everyone in the world is Erendra; however, the word 'damn' is the same in Erendra as it is in English. I've only seen cross-overs like this twice in my life (I'm 33...do the math), so thankfully this is not too common. But, it's still interesting to see.

Did anyone catch Shaun of the Dead on DVD? They have a special feature showing how a certain scene would play if the f-bomb were replaced.

I'm not especially fond of swearing or use of obscenities, but I have to admit that the scene that they re-shot without the f-bomb didn't have quite the punch.

Heh. The word "dren" from Farscape has become so ingrained in me that I try to use it as a word when I'm playing Text Twist...and I'm always disappointed when it doesn't work. I use "frell" a lot too. I think that the Farscape cusses are effective because they mean essentially the same thing they do in English, they're just in an alien language. Which you'd think the translator microbes would, er, translate, but I like that they don't.

Jim Butcher uses "crows" in his Codex Alera series, which makes a certain sort of sense. Nasty carrion birds in that world, that pick over battlegrounds and eat dead things. Ugh.

Kage Baker uses “shracking” in The Life of the World to Come, which refers to some sexual perversion that has been invented by the 24th century. It works well in the book, folks fling it around in conversation with no self-consciousness whatever. I think the awareness of using profanity is part of why made-up words don’t always work so well in fiction; that “oh, look, I just cursed” thing. Messes up the flow.

Hard to beat "Fuck it! The fucking fucker's fucked!" when your garbage disposal eats a spoon and burns out...

One should, of course, read Robert Graves's Lars Porsena or The Future of Swearing and Improper Language. It's long out of print but often available second-hand.

"Frak" in BSG always seems less forced that "frell" in Farscape. And though it is more a positive statement than a curse, I am very fond of "shiny" from Firefly. And the Red Dwarf crew got away with murder with "smeg" and all its derivatives.

This is an interesting discussion to stumble across. Yesterday I was submitting Yet Another Story to Orson Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show, when I saw their note about trying to keep things PG-13 (for the parents) and decided to do a quick scan of my story. Decided to tone down a paragraph where the Chief of the Boat is laying down the law...

"... But for my money -- and trust me it’s hard earned -- I think someone or someones fucked up pretty bad and killed everyone. Now if you don’t want to see my bad side, I strongly suggest you don’t plan on fucking up on this cruise," she said. "’Cause if you do fuck up and kill everybody, well, I’m just going to have to kill you myself. Is that clear?"

For purposes of advancing the story, swapping out "fuck" with "mess" works okay. (grin)

Of course, for sheer "poetry", and again from teh movies and not books, I offer you: "By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Warvan, you shall be avenged!".

Dr. Phil

I don't think fake swear words in TV work quite the same as in writing because on screen you have an actor saying the word, however ridiculous, with force of conviction. Really helps sell the thing. You don't have the advantage on the page. I think what people are saying about world-building and context is true.

Incidentally, I remember stumbling across 'spark' as an imprecation while reading some golden age sci-fi book (I don't remember what, or by who). Even at the time it struck me as pretty silly.

Also, hi.

A bit tangential, but funny: the third episode came out today in a series of machinima on Inventing Swear Words.

Inventing Swear Words 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5q3TG5yCG0
Inventing Swear Words 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLrk4J6hK0M
Inventing Swear Words 3: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=17831507

Jeri wrote:I think 'frak' still works ok in Battlestar Galactica - but Frelling doesn't work for me (B5). Maybe it's a hard consonant issue?

I agree; I haven't seen B5 (although much <3 for BSG, the new one at least) but when my friends use "frell" is sounds like "darn". The ll's make it prettier to the ear. Whereas "frak" sounds much more harsh and emphatic.

I notice that neither one are made up from real words--lessens the possibility of a real word meaning softening the blow. I also notice that both confirm to typical English rules...unlike TANJ like someone mentioned. What other word ends in a hanging J? Should have an E or something after it.

Chang wrote:The old BSG had "felgercarb" which was fun to say but in the wrong company outed you as "un geek totale."

"felgercarb" is one I don't like; it 'sounds' like gibberish, and when you break it down the structure of it doesn't look like any English word or any latin-based loanword. It doesn't have a "history" behind it. It doesn't resemble any non-English language either, but the placements of the vowels are very English so I don't "believe" it's non-human or non-English. (er...I'm not a linguist, so it's possible/probable I'm speaking out of my ass here. This is just what makes me 'reject' the word.) It's also hard to spit out in anger without coughing up a hairball...which goes back to the harder consonants thing I think...b's and fr's and d's and m's sound harsher but are easy to spit out.

marydell wrote:Most fake cussing is bad, though, as is most fake language not constructed by linguists.

and

Chang wrote:For me, cursing is like music in writing. I don't try to make up new music or curses because they will always sound dated (Calypso being a popular form of music in Red Mars just makes me squirm).

I think both are because they employ different talents. Most writers are not linguists, and most writers are not poets or lyricists. Poetry is short so pretty much anyone thinks they can make up a poem and it'll be good. The problem is, unless you're very familiar with short forms of writing such as poetry and lyrics, and you've put work into learning that form of writing, it's really hard to do well. Thus, books often have bad poetry written by an otherwise good author.

Re: fathermilker - haha, yes, that's disgusting. I like that one, but I can see how its grossness would be jarring. It sounds like a cussword that would be used once "motherfucker" is worn out, so like in the next 50-100 years. It'd be good for near-future sci-fi. Along with "motherlicker".

Re: barklicker / bark licking brick - Do Ents call each other that, when they're really angry? That's a good one too, more for its comedic value than it's truly cuss-tastic factor.

Re: cusswords having to do with ancestry - I put that under "religion" myself, since a lot of cultures out there have religions with ancestor-reverence/worship in them, and generally wherever you go some religion tells you to honor your parents and be good to them.

M.A. wrote:Kage Baker uses “shracking” in The Life of the World to Come, which refers to some sexual perversion that has been invented by the 24th century. It works well in the book, folks fling it around in conversation with no self-consciousness whatever. I think the awareness of using profanity is part of why made-up words don’t always work so well in fiction; that “oh, look, I just cursed” thing. Messes up the flow.

I like "shracking". Makes me wonder exactly what perversion it's alluding too--shacking up with an alien? Shit-fracking, as in anal intercourse? Both? (I've never read the books you refer to). Although when you say "awareness of using profanity", do you mean author-awareness, or character-awareness? I agree that if an author words it wrong it comes out as self-conscious, or a challenge. But with characters, I feel they should react according to their personalities, which in some cases means a character has to tell someone off for using a word.

Edit: For various typos, word tense mishaps, etc.

I think that if a "curse" word rolls off the tongue and sounds like you're cursing (in which case movies and TV have an advantage over books) it'll work.

Since I do customer support, I discovered that even "poop" is effective at displaying discontent when I really mean "shit", and because people aren't used to hearing it from anyone older than a toddler, it has amusement value, which helps to offset my irritation.

But a curse has to have a good cadence or it doesn't work.

So "big furry jerk" works for me, as does "son of a motherless goat" because the cadence is right to roll off my tongue. Perhaps it's all the hard consonants that can be bitten off in irritation. (As in "That customer was SUCH a Big. Furry. Jerk.")

Although "shit" really works well also, because you can draw out the beginning and then bite off the end. Like when I discover I've accidentally deleted twenty minutes of work, "ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssshit."

But I have to say I really like "bark licker" and may have to add it to my repertoire.

Braun wrote:I don't think fake swear words in TV work quite the same as in writing because on screen you have an actor saying the word, however ridiculous, with force of conviction. Really helps sell the thing. You don't have the advantage on the page.

I think that can lend advantage where the writing itself is not strong enough to portray a character as truly emphatic, and the actor uses their skills to make up for it, but a good writer with a good choice of cussword can stand on its own.

Funny thing about writing for the stage...it's so sparse, in some ways, really down to the bones of dialogue, because the actor him/herself is the one that will actually be bringing the character to life. Whereas a novelist *is* the actor, as much as he or she can be. But that's off topic.

Braun wrote:Also, hi.

Hi! (my fingers kept trying to type "Jo!" for some reason... Jo man! Whazzup?)

Slightly off topic, but not really...Sarah Monette uses the word "molly" for a gay man in her fantasy series. It works well; it's not a word *we* use for a gay man, but it has a certain plausibility, something in the world's pop culture that would have given the word the meaning. Sort of like the word "barbie" in ours, which used to be a name, but now has overtones due to the plastic doll.

Domini wrote:I think that can lend advantage where the writing itself is not strong enough to portray a character as truly emphatic, and the actor uses their skills to make up for it, but a good writer with a good choice of cussword can stand on its own.

I don't think it's simply down to 'strong writing'. You could be frikkin' Shakespeare, 'tanj' is still gonna take me out of the moment every time. 'Frak' works because it sounds so close to the word it's replacing, IMHO.

I think somebody hit on it earlier - if the word makes sense in the context of your world, I'll go with it.

I think you're overlooking my word choice...

but a good writer with a good choice of cussword

I agree that a poor choice of cuss is going to fall over in writing, but might be able to stand on tv if the actor is good.

It definitely helps if it's used in context the way you expect swears to be used, and comes spitting out like it should. Sadly, as pointed out up-thread, "tanj" just doesn't cut it.

For your tangential amusement, here's a commercial for Swears Unlimited, the company that makes these swear words up for authors and show runners.

CJH_esper wrote:

Holy Klono's tungsten teeth and curving carballoy claws!

I'll see your Klono's body part and raise you a "Hell's brazen hinges!"

Does a lensman really have a need to swear?

squidboy wrote:

CJH_esper wrote:

Holy Klono's tungsten teeth and curving carballoy claws!

I'll see your Klono's body part and raise you a "Hell's brazen hinges!"

Does a lensman really have a need to swear?

I think that's another category of oath...the sort of amusing thing a certain type of person will insert instead of an actual insulting cussword.

"Merciful Domi", "Mother Night and May the Darkness be Merciful", "Hell's bells!", "Bark licker", and "By all the balls in the gymnasium!" all sort of fall into this category. They sound fine and legit, and lend a sense of amusement to the scene, but they're not the same class of oath such as "fuck" or "frak" or "motherfucker/fracker/licker".

...hmm, I'm suddenly very proud of thinking up "By all the balls in the gymnasium!". One of my characters must say that, sometime. Perhaps even ejaculate it. Whee!